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Message 50 - Posted 1 Aug 2010 6:28:47 UTC

    Have you considered raising the credits on this project? They seem really low. I would recommend somewhere around 4x what you are currently issuing as that would put you more in line with Yoyo, Quantum Fire, PrimeGrid, and Collatz.

    Many people slog through the horrible credits offered by the medical projects for other reasons, but since this is not a medical project I think you will find that you would get significantly more work done and much broader participation with better cobblestone payout.

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    Message 51 - Posted 1 Aug 2010 10:10:31 UTC - in response to Message 50.

      Hi Mr. Hankey,

      actually I don't know how to change those credit settings ...
      I'll check this ...

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      Message 62 - Posted 2 Aug 2010 15:14:58 UTC - in response to Message 51.

        Hi Mr. Hankey,

        actually I don't know how to change those credit settings ...
        I'll check this ...


        http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditNew

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        Message 63 - Posted 3 Aug 2010 4:50:01 UTC

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          Yea, the default credit system and the "new" default credit system both stink... you can also just grant fixed credit / wu, which is what most projects seem to do. This allows you to control the credit based on what works best for your project needs.

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          Message 66 - Posted 3 Aug 2010 14:04:12 UTC

            For the Collatz project, I use a baseline machine which should earn a known number of credits per day per the flops calculations. That is a PIII 1Ghz box which should earn 98.7 credits per day. Using the stock application with no sse, sse2, x86 intrinsics, or assembly, etc, I set the credits so that that machine gets 100 credits per day. Note that I did not use RAC since the RAC will be high right after you return a result and low right before you return the next one which makes it impossible to measure at a given point of time accurately unless the WUs are very short.

            Once the baseline is established, the credits are fixed to that. If a 64-bit version of the application can do a workunit twice as fast, it will be awarded twice the credit. If a GPU apps can do it 10 times as fast, it gets 10 times the credit. Why do I do that? I know that fitting a square peg in a round hole isn't the answer. An app that works well on a CPU may not work well on a GPU. That's OK. If some other projects GPU app runs at just twice the speed as their CPU app, shouldn't it get twice the credit as the cpu app? Sure. If the Collatz GPU app is 20 times faster than the CPU app, shouldn't it get 20 times the credit? I say yes. But, the new credit system says tries to make both GPU apps the same under the false assumption that all code and all algorithms run equally well on both. Should the other project's GPU app get 20 times the credit for only doing 2 times the work? No. Should the Collatz GPU app only get twice the credit when it is doing 20 times the work? No. In other words, forget cross project parity. It is unfair.

            Obviously, that method used by Collatz only works if there is some type of fixed measurement you can use to grant the credit. In the case of Collatz, the workunits are the same size but take different times to complete. On a given machine, the time to complete goes up and down with the the total steps calculated, so I base the credit on the total steps. If you didn't want to use claimed credit in primaboinca, you would need to come up with some type of measurement.

            To change the credit, you have to edit the compute_granted_credit method in your validator code. If using the sample trivial or sample bitwise validators, they both use the median mean credit from the WUs (e.g. claimed credit) which works so long several people don't download the client code, and compile their own version which reports higher claimed credit than it should.

            For Collatz, I read the # of steps per credit from a file so that I can adjust it easily without having to recompile and redeploy the validator. Since the PIII is a dedicated cruncher, I just keep and eye on it to make sure it continues around 100 credits per day. I don't try to keep up with MW or PG or other projects by raising or lowing credit. I do that by coming up with ways to improve the code so that the various processors can crunch faster. For Collatz, that means assembly and x86 intrinsics and taking advantage of 64-bit integers on 64-bit operating systems. All versions run using the same algorithm and source code and differ only where there is an optimization for a specific platform/cpu feature (e.g. the use of intrinsics for 64-bit multiplication on 32-bit machines verses C++ code)

            The end result is that the Collatz algorithm can run really well in parallel which makes it a great app for GPUs. It uses only integer math which makes it a good choice for 64-bit operating systems which can do twice the work in the same amount of time. Intrinsics help speed up 32-bit apps making them faster as well. Are the credits the same verses other projects? Yes, but only for the stock app. The optimized apps are all based on the same credit as the stock app but because they are more efficient, they get more credit.

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            Message 67 - Posted 4 Aug 2010 2:39:10 UTC - in response to Message 66.

              For the Collatz project, I use a baseline machine which should earn a known number of credits per day per the flops calculations. That is a PIII 1Ghz box which should earn 98.7 credits per day. Using the stock application with no sse, sse2, x86 intrinsics, or assembly, etc, I set the credits so that that machine gets 100 credits per day. Note that I did not use RAC since the RAC will be high right after you return a result and low right before you return the next one which makes it impossible to measure at a given point of time accurately unless the WUs are very short.

              Once the baseline is established, the credits are fixed to that. If a 64-bit version of the application can do a workunit twice as fast, it will be awarded twice the credit. If a GPU apps can do it 10 times as fast, it gets 10 times the credit. Why do I do that? I know that fitting a square peg in a round hole isn't the answer. An app that works well on a CPU may not work well on a GPU. That's OK. If some other projects GPU app runs at just twice the speed as their CPU app, shouldn't it get twice the credit as the cpu app? Sure. If the Collatz GPU app is 20 times faster than the CPU app, shouldn't it get 20 times the credit? I say yes. But, the new credit system says tries to make both GPU apps the same under the false assumption that all code and all algorithms run equally well on both. Should the other project's GPU app get 20 times the credit for only doing 2 times the work? No. Should the Collatz GPU app only get twice the credit when it is doing 20 times the work? No. In other words, forget cross project parity. It is unfair.

              Obviously, that method used by Collatz only works if there is some type of fixed measurement you can use to grant the credit. In the case of Collatz, the workunits are the same size but take different times to complete. On a given machine, the time to complete goes up and down with the the total steps calculated, so I base the credit on the total steps. If you didn't want to use claimed credit in primaboinca, you would need to come up with some type of measurement.

              To change the credit, you have to edit the compute_granted_credit method in your validator code. If using the sample trivial or sample bitwise validators, they both use the median mean credit from the WUs (e.g. claimed credit) which works so long several people don't download the client code, and compile their own version which reports higher claimed credit than it should.

              For Collatz, I read the # of steps per credit from a file so that I can adjust it easily without having to recompile and redeploy the validator. Since the PIII is a dedicated cruncher, I just keep and eye on it to make sure it continues around 100 credits per day. I don't try to keep up with MW or PG or other projects by raising or lowing credit. I do that by coming up with ways to improve the code so that the various processors can crunch faster. For Collatz, that means assembly and x86 intrinsics and taking advantage of 64-bit integers on 64-bit operating systems. All versions run using the same algorithm and source code and differ only where there is an optimization for a specific platform/cpu feature (e.g. the use of intrinsics for 64-bit multiplication on 32-bit machines verses C++ code)

              The end result is that the Collatz algorithm can run really well in parallel which makes it a great app for GPUs. It uses only integer math which makes it a good choice for 64-bit operating systems which can do twice the work in the same amount of time. Intrinsics help speed up 32-bit apps making them faster as well. Are the credits the same verses other projects? Yes, but only for the stock app. The optimized apps are all based on the same credit as the stock app but because they are more efficient, they get more credit.

              I really hope you are talking about credit per hour rather than credit per task. If the GPU task gets done 10 times as fast as the CPU app, and they both generate the same amount of credit per task, the GPU will generate 10X the credit per hour (as makes sense).

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              Message 68 - Posted 4 Aug 2010 2:40:29 UTC - in response to Message 63.

                Yea, the default credit system and the "new" default credit system both stink... you can also just grant fixed credit / wu, which is what most projects seem to do. This allows you to control the credit based on what works best for your project needs.

                The credits per hour for a standard CPU are supposed to be the same across projects. I know it can't be perfect, but begging projects to break this is wrong.

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                Message 79 - Posted 4 Aug 2010 17:45:26 UTC - in response to Message 68.

                  Yea, the default credit system and the "new" default credit system both stink... you can also just grant fixed credit / wu, which is what most projects seem to do. This allows you to control the credit based on what works best for your project needs.

                  The credits per hour for a standard CPU are supposed to be the same across projects. I know it can't be perfect, but begging projects to break this is wrong.


                  LOL... wrong? That is really funny. I don't see any "begging" going on. I hope the credit kops and morality police won't throw me in jail for inciting the peasants. The cross project cobblestone parity is a myth.

                  I was simply pointing out the fact that the project will get more traffic and more work done if the cobbles are more attractive, if that isn't a priority for the project then no worries.

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                  Message 80 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 2:15:43 UTC - in response to Message 79.

                    Yea, the default credit system and the "new" default credit system both stink... you can also just grant fixed credit / wu, which is what most projects seem to do. This allows you to control the credit based on what works best for your project needs.

                    The credits per hour for a standard CPU are supposed to be the same across projects. I know it can't be perfect, but begging projects to break this is wrong.


                    LOL... wrong? That is really funny. I don't see any "begging" going on. I hope the credit kops and morality police won't throw me in jail for inciting the peasants. The cross project cobblestone parity is a myth.

                    I was simply pointing out the fact that the project will get more traffic and more work done if the cobbles are more attractive, if that isn't a priority for the project then no worries.

                    Cross project credit parity is a worthy goal. Not completely attainable, but still to be attempted as best we can.
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                    Message 81 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 3:04:28 UTC

                      Last modified: 5 Aug 2010 3:11:38 UTC

                      Me flying by flapping my arms really hard is also a worthy goal. It's also something I really, really want to work. But guess what? It's just not possible.

                      Cross project parity is completely impossible. Full stop. Nicolas has explained this (and why) over and over. Any attempt at it, is a waste of time and effort.

                      Cross project comparisons should not be via credits. Rather they should be compared by a method such as mega milestones or fomula boinc.
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                      Message 82 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 5:37:12 UTC - in response to Message 81.

                        I agree with Mr Hankey and Zombie. Let the projects decide their own credit compensations based upon their research's value and attracting users. A generous credit base will insure plenty of cruncher. :)

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                        Message 84 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 11:52:48 UTC - in response to Message 81.

                          Me flying by flapping my arms really hard is also a worthy goal. It's also something I really, really want to work. But guess what? It's just not possible.

                          Cross project parity is completely impossible. Full stop. Nicolas has explained this (and why) over and over. Any attempt at it, is a waste of time and effort.

                          Cross project comparisons should not be via credits. Rather they should be compared by a method such as mega milestones or fomula boinc.

                          The difference between not remotely possible (flying by flapping your wings) and having a difference of a few percent if done right is very large. Come up with an analogy that is closer to reality please. Most of the largest differences are caused by the credit whores convincing projects to raise credit grants through the roof. Projects should stand on their own merits, not how much credit they grant.
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                          Message 88 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 19:11:44 UTC - in response to Message 84.

                            Projects should stand on their own merits, not how much credit they grant.


                            Then it shouldn't really matter to you how much credit projects grant you can crunch based on the merits you perceive (not credits), and others can crunch on the merits they perceive (credits)

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                            Message 90 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 23:02:26 UTC - in response to Message 88.

                              Projects should stand on their own merits, not how much credit they grant.


                              Then it shouldn't really matter to you how much credit projects grant you can crunch based on the merits you perceive (not credits), and others can crunch on the merits they perceive (credits)

                              That statement is completely wrong. If they all grant as close to the same credits as possible, then they stand on their own merits. Otherwise, some will only pick the project with the highest credit grant - therefore they would NOT stand on their own merits.
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                              Message 93 - Posted 5 Aug 2010 23:08:44 UTC - in response to Message 90.

                                Projects should stand on their own merits, not how much credit they grant.


                                Then it shouldn't really matter to you how much credit projects grant you can crunch based on the merits you perceive (not credits), and others can crunch on the merits they perceive (credits)

                                That statement is completely wrong. If they all grant as close to the same credits as possible, then they stand on their own merits. Otherwise, some will only pick the project with the highest credit grant - therefore they would NOT stand on their own merits.



                                Well that is what you count as merit, you can't force others to have the same merit criteria that you do.

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                                Message 94 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 0:41:48 UTC - in response to Message 93.

                                  Projects should stand on their own merits, not how much credit they grant.


                                  Then it shouldn't really matter to you how much credit projects grant you can crunch based on the merits you perceive (not credits), and others can crunch on the merits they perceive (credits)

                                  That statement is completely wrong. If they all grant as close to the same credits as possible, then they stand on their own merits. Otherwise, some will only pick the project with the highest credit grant - therefore they would NOT stand on their own merits.



                                  Well that is what you count as merit, you can't force others to have the same merit criteria that you do.

                                  Well, since you believe every project should set credit they way they feel fit, why shouldn't the projects try to set to parity? Or are you just trying to find some project to boost your cross project credit as high possible for as little work as possible?
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                                  Message 95 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 1:01:20 UTC

                                    Is that parity set before or after releasing optimized apps? 64 bit apps? GPU apps? Non-CPU apps? And if after, is that after the first optimized version, or the 7th? It's just not possible.
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                                    Message 96 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 1:20:54 UTC - in response to Message 95.

                                      Is that parity set before or after releasing optimized apps? 64 bit apps? GPU apps? Non-CPU apps? And if after, is that after the first optimized version, or the 7th? It's just not possible.

                                      The best that can be done is have parity be an average of the current state of optimized / 64 bit / ... versions of each application. Not perfect, but it is better than removing ALL meaning from credits as those that would have the projects set credits to be whatever they feel like would do.

                                      What I am getting from some people is that since perfect is impossible, we should just do away with credits meaning anything at all. In that case, we should just get rid of credits in my opinion.
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                                      Message 97 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 1:46:58 UTC - in response to Message 96.

                                        Is that parity set before or after releasing optimized apps? 64 bit apps? GPU apps? Non-CPU apps? And if after, is that after the first optimized version, or the 7th? It's just not possible.

                                        The best that can be done is have parity be an average of the current state of optimized / 64 bit / ... versions of each application. Not perfect, but it is better than removing ALL meaning from credits as those that would have the projects set credits to be whatever they feel like would do.

                                        What I am getting from some people is that since perfect is impossible, we should just do away with credits meaning anything at all. In that case, we should just get rid of credits in my opinion.

                                        You are suggesting reducing credits every time production increases because (for example) someone puts in the hard work to improve the app? Wow. That would drive people away, and remove any incentive to improve apps. What a horrible scenario.
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                                        Message 98 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 5:46:05 UTC - in response to Message 94.

                                          Well, since you believe every project should set credit they way they feel fit, why shouldn't the projects try to set to parity? Or are you just trying to find some project to boost your cross project credit as high possible for as little work as possible?


                                          Why would they want credit parity? You pay more you get more participants. I don't have any problem generating credits on any project. You seem to have some kind of personal (cobblestone inadequacy?) issue or else I don't see why you keep trying to make this about my personal crunching. I am just talking about the credits on this project. I haven't seen any logical reason from you for not having a project set credits that are optimized based on the needs of the project to get their work done.

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                                          Message 100 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 12:33:08 UTC - in response to Message 97.

                                            Is that parity set before or after releasing optimized apps? 64 bit apps? GPU apps? Non-CPU apps? And if after, is that after the first optimized version, or the 7th? It's just not possible.

                                            The best that can be done is have parity be an average of the current state of optimized / 64 bit / ... versions of each application. Not perfect, but it is better than removing ALL meaning from credits as those that would have the projects set credits to be whatever they feel like would do.

                                            What I am getting from some people is that since perfect is impossible, we should just do away with credits meaning anything at all. In that case, we should just get rid of credits in my opinion.

                                            You are suggesting reducing credits every time production increases because (for example) someone puts in the hard work to improve the app? Wow. That would drive people away, and remove any incentive to improve apps. What a horrible scenario.

                                            For a while, extra credit is granted to the group that has the optimized application - until the optimized application is on all machines attached to the project.
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                                            Message 101 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 12:36:45 UTC - in response to Message 98.

                                              Well, since you believe every project should set credit they way they feel fit, why shouldn't the projects try to set to parity? Or are you just trying to find some project to boost your cross project credit as high possible for as little work as possible?


                                              Why would they want credit parity? You pay more you get more participants. I don't have any problem generating credits on any project. You seem to have some kind of personal (cobblestone inadequacy?) issue or else I don't see why you keep trying to make this about my personal crunching. I am just talking about the credits on this project. I haven't seen any logical reason from you for not having a project set credits that are optimized based on the needs of the project to get their work done.

                                              Not always true. Some of us make a point to reduce the work that we do for projects that have extraordinarily high credit grants. You gain a few people that care only about credits and breaking the cross project comparisons possible if the projects have approximately equal credit grants. You do not gain among the vast majority of people who just don't care one way or another, and you risk losing the work of those that do care about credit parity.

                                              Some of the credit hogs have made a point about "if you don't like the high credit grants here, go away and leave us alone." That is telling the users that care about credit parity to go away and not help the project. BTW, that has actually been said to me on a couple of projects.
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                                              Message 104 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 14:01:10 UTC

                                                Hi.

                                                just for the record. I agree with John. The project goal should be decisive, if you join a project (or not), not the credits. The insane amount of credits generated by DNETC ATM is just laughable.

                                                Credit parity is important (to me). Imagine a league of you favorite sports. But each home-team can decide beforehand how many points the winning team gets. So in order to attract more visitors, the number of points is increased. Would you like that? Not me.

                                                But every discussion on credits is futile, the science is important. So I stay here to help Fabio with his thesis.

                                                Kind Regards,

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                                                Message 105 - Posted 6 Aug 2010 14:05:06 UTC - in response to Message 100.

                                                  Is that parity set before or after releasing optimized apps? 64 bit apps? GPU apps? Non-CPU apps? And if after, is that after the first optimized version, or the 7th? It's just not possible.

                                                  The best that can be done is have parity be an average of the current state of optimized / 64 bit / ... versions of each application. Not perfect, but it is better than removing ALL meaning from credits as those that would have the projects set credits to be whatever they feel like would do.

                                                  What I am getting from some people is that since perfect is impossible, we should just do away with credits meaning anything at all. In that case, we should just get rid of credits in my opinion.

                                                  You are suggesting reducing credits every time production increases because (for example) someone puts in the hard work to improve the app? Wow. That would drive people away, and remove any incentive to improve apps. What a horrible scenario.

                                                  For a while, extra credit is granted to the group that has the optimized application - until the optimized application is on all machines attached to the project.


                                                  You assume the opt apps will run on all machines. That is rarely true. 32 bit machines can't run 64 bit, for example. So where is the incentive to make a 64 bit app that crunches twice as fast, if the credits awarded are just going to be reduced down to achieve parity with the 32 bit apps? You are removing any incentive to improve productivity.
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                                                  Message 112 - Posted 7 Aug 2010 1:44:28 UTC - in response to Message 105.

                                                    Is that parity set before or after releasing optimized apps? 64 bit apps? GPU apps? Non-CPU apps? And if after, is that after the first optimized version, or the 7th? It's just not possible.

                                                    The best that can be done is have parity be an average of the current state of optimized / 64 bit / ... versions of each application. Not perfect, but it is better than removing ALL meaning from credits as those that would have the projects set credits to be whatever they feel like would do.

                                                    What I am getting from some people is that since perfect is impossible, we should just do away with credits meaning anything at all. In that case, we should just get rid of credits in my opinion.

                                                    You are suggesting reducing credits every time production increases because (for example) someone puts in the hard work to improve the app? Wow. That would drive people away, and remove any incentive to improve apps. What a horrible scenario.

                                                    For a while, extra credit is granted to the group that has the optimized application - until the optimized application is on all machines attached to the project.


                                                    You assume the opt apps will run on all machines. That is rarely true. 32 bit machines can't run 64 bit, for example. So where is the incentive to make a 64 bit app that crunches twice as fast, if the credits awarded are just going to be reduced down to achieve parity with the 32 bit apps? You are removing any incentive to improve productivity.

                                                    But they won't be. If most of the machines run the non-optimized application, then the average will be heavily tilted towards the non-optimized application. If one machine out of 1000 has the optimized application, the average hardly moves at all. If half the machines have the optimized applications, then the unoptimized applications will get below average by half the difference between the two, and the optimized application will get above the average by the same amount. When everyone has the optimized application the optimized application gets the same / hour as the unoptimized application before the optimized application was introduced. There is a payoff for doing an optimized application. It is just not permanent in all cases. In the case of 64 bit / 32 bit or a new processor set, it can be a very long time before everyone has the required hardware.

                                                    Note: I am talking about credits per hour, not credits / task.
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                                                    Message 116 - Posted 7 Aug 2010 3:13:39 UTC - in response to Message 112.

                                                      You have two employees:
                                                      Employee 1: A bit of an idiot. Successfully dresses himself in the morning, then high-fives himself for completing such an arduous task.
                                                      Employee 2: Brilliant young man. Could do anything he sets his mind to. Picks up on new things really easily.

                                                      -Both start out at the new job, and are doing the same amount of work. Both get paid the same. I'm assuming no one would argue that that's fair.
                                                      -Two months later, Employee 2 has learned some new techniques and can do twice the amount of work in the same amount of time. Who should be paid more?
                                                      -A year later, Employee 2 has developed a brand-new process that can complete the work 20 times as fast; Employee one is still producing at the same rate. Who should be paid more?

                                                      If you say they should both be paid the same because they've been at the company the same amount of time, or because the company loves all its employees the same, I pray that I never work for you or anyone like you.

                                                      End of allegory.

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                                                      Message 118 - Posted 7 Aug 2010 6:48:23 UTC - in response to Message 116.

                                                        You have two employees:
                                                        Employee 1: A bit of an idiot. Successfully dresses himself in the morning, then high-fives himself for completing such an arduous task.
                                                        Employee 2: Brilliant young man. Could do anything he sets his mind to. Picks up on new things really easily.


                                                        I see it more like that:

                                                        E2: Gets a more sophisticated tool to work with and completes more work in the same amount of time.

                                                        Greetings,

                                                        Michael

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                                                        Message 121 - Posted 7 Aug 2010 15:10:39 UTC

                                                          Last modified: 7 Aug 2010 15:16:22 UTC

                                                          It is obvious that John is a kredit kop and his 'herd' mentality is based in the ideals of 'socialism'. He believes that the STATE should own/run everything so that there is complete equality in the masses. He is opposed to 'capitalism' that gives power to the people (projects) to determine their own destiny. He believes everyone should earn the same rewards, regardless of your station in life. Whether you are a mechanical engineer or a pipefitter, its all the same (cross-project parity). Showing him the errors of his thinking seem to be pointless. His mind is set on forcing everyone to live by his standard of, "..what is good for the goose is good for the gander".

                                                          Cross-project parity (socialism) does not work. It stifles achievement, incentive, advancement and proliferation. Capitalism (projects right to choose) empowers people to do and be all they can be. To achieve whatever goals they desire, whether it be for money, fame, glory or knowledge.

                                                          It is the projects right to determine their worth and how they reward user for their participation. Cross-project parity removes that right to choose and forces them to follow the herd. I reject this socialist ideal and chose their right of self-determination. Time to lock 'n load.

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                                                          Message 125 - Posted 7 Aug 2010 18:15:50 UTC - in response to Message 121.

                                                            Last modified: 7 Aug 2010 18:23:23 UTC

                                                            It is obvious that John is a kredit kop and his 'herd' mentality is based in the ideals of 'socialism'. He believes that the STATE should own/run everything so that there is complete equality in the masses. He is opposed to 'capitalism' that gives power to the people (projects) to determine their own destiny. He believes everyone should earn the same rewards, regardless of your station in life. Whether you are a mechanical engineer or a pipefitter, its all the same (cross-project parity). Showing him the errors of his thinking seem to be pointless. His mind is set on forcing everyone to live by his standard of, "..what is good for the goose is good for the gander".

                                                            Cross-project parity (socialism) does not work. It stifles achievement, incentive, advancement and proliferation. Capitalism (projects right to choose) empowers people to do and be all they can be. To achieve whatever goals they desire, whether it be for money, fame, glory or knowledge.

                                                            It is the projects right to determine their worth and how they reward user for their participation. Cross-project parity removes that right to choose and forces them to follow the herd. I reject this socialist ideal and chose their right of self-determination. Time to lock 'n load.

                                                            The comparison to Capitalism and Socialism only goes so far, or you can continue it further than you have.

                                                            Even in Capitalism there are constraints on how much workers get paid. The company has to bring in the money to pay the workers somehow. This is distinctly not the case in BOINC. Credit is granted, but the projects do not have to earn it in any way before it is granted.

                                                            Having projects assign whatever value they feel like is more akin to counterfitting than capitalism. It makes the ultimate value and utility 0.
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                                                            Message 126 - Posted 7 Aug 2010 18:18:39 UTC - in response to Message 116.

                                                              You have two employees:
                                                              Employee 1: A bit of an idiot. Successfully dresses himself in the morning, then high-fives himself for completing such an arduous task.
                                                              Employee 2: Brilliant young man. Could do anything he sets his mind to. Picks up on new things really easily.

                                                              -Both start out at the new job, and are doing the same amount of work. Both get paid the same. I'm assuming no one would argue that that's fair.
                                                              -Two months later, Employee 2 has learned some new techniques and can do twice the amount of work in the same amount of time. Who should be paid more?
                                                              -A year later, Employee 2 has developed a brand-new process that can complete the work 20 times as fast; Employee one is still producing at the same rate. Who should be paid more?

                                                              If you say they should both be paid the same because they've been at the company the same amount of time, or because the company loves all its employees the same, I pray that I never work for you or anyone like you.

                                                              End of allegory.

                                                              Fine it is piecework. E2 gets paid the same per piece as E1 at all times. E2 just gets more of them done. Eventually the supply outstrips the demand and both of them get paid less per piece. E2 still earns more than E1, but not as much more as he might have expected. E2 still gets paid more in total than E1 did at the beginning.
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                                                              Message 127 - Posted 8 Aug 2010 2:26:45 UTC - in response to Message 125.

                                                                Last modified: 8 Aug 2010 2:45:33 UTC


                                                                The comparison to Capitalism and Socialism only goes so far, or you can continue it further than you have.

                                                                Even in Capitalism there are constraints on how much workers get paid. The company has to bring in the money to pay the workers somehow. This is distinctly not the case in BOINC. Credit is granted, but the projects do not have to earn it in any way before it is granted.

                                                                Having projects assign whatever value they feel like is more akin to counterfitting than capitalism. It makes the ultimate value and utility 0.

                                                                Fine it is piecework. E2 gets paid the same per piece as E1 at all times. E2 just gets more of them done. Eventually the supply outstrips the demand and both of them get paid less per piece. E2 still earns more than E1, but not as much more as he might have expected. E2 still gets paid more in total than E1 did at the beginning.


                                                                DOH! What a hugh pile of bat guano! Your ignorance of simple, basic social economics is so appalling it's absurd. Futher debate with you will prove pointless since you lack the concepts necessary to rationally support your views or to comprehend ours. For that I pity you

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                                                                Message 130 - Posted 9 Aug 2010 17:00:04 UTC - in response to Message 125.


                                                                  The comparison to Capitalism and Socialism only goes so far, or you can continue it further than you have.

                                                                  Even in Capitalism there are constraints on how much workers get paid. The company has to bring in the money to pay the workers somehow. This is distinctly not the case in BOINC. Credit is granted, but the projects do not have to earn it in any way before it is granted.

                                                                  Having projects assign whatever value they feel like is more akin to counterfitting than capitalism. It makes the ultimate value and utility 0.



                                                                  Have to not figured it out. There is no "gold" standard anymore - The Fed Reserve has been given the green light to print as much fiat money as they feel they need.
                                                                  So is true of BOINC- it is a fiat based system. The project admins should have the right to determine how much work they want/need done and base the payout on those standards.

                                                                  Cross Credit is a socialistic point of view.

                                                                  Credit should be award by credit per work unit, and stats should be accounted for per project instead of cross project.

                                                                  That is why I hardly ever look at total BOINC stats - but stats within each project.

                                                                  Your constant fight to keep CCP and lowering the standard to you view simplifies the issue, and leads to these sort of discussions.


                                                                  If I owned a business- and I do. I would never ever ever hire anyone with your attitude on equality. I pay for production, not for just showing up. Not a single employee of mine is hourly pay, it is either piece rate or commission. This drives the company forward, entices workers to figure out faster and better ways to do the same job (saving the company money in the long run) motivates sales to new highs!
                                                                  I LOVE paying out huge commission checks! Or seeing the employees being able to work 2-3 hours a day and get paid for 8 or 9, and getting the same amount of work done. Nothing is better for the bottom line of a company than group of people motivated by personal achievement and greed.

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                                                                  Message 132 - Posted 9 Aug 2010 21:00:28 UTC

                                                                    Last modified: 9 Aug 2010 21:04:33 UTC

                                                                    Bravo Kevint Bravo!

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                                                                    Message 133 - Posted 10 Aug 2010 22:04:32 UTC - in response to Message 50.

                                                                      Last modified: 10 Aug 2010 22:21:14 UTC

                                                                      Fabio,

                                                                      Have you considered raising the credits on this project? They seem really low. I would recommend somewhere around 4x what you are currently issuing as that would put you more in line with Yoyo, Quantum Fire, PrimeGrid, and Collatz.

                                                                      Many people slog through the horrible credits offered by the medical projects for other reasons, but since this is not a medical project I think you will find that you would get significantly more work done and much broader participation with better cobblestone payout.


                                                                      It seems we got off on a tagent from the original request. The question of whether the credit level could be increased, is still unanswered. An increase of 3x-4x the level it is now would be on par with the other projects.

                                                                      I am finding it increasingly difficult to support projects who refuse to compensate their user with a better reward system than they do. As I am on a fixed income, the cost to operate my computer is becoming harder as well. A good return on my work is my only compenstion in doing so. And I am sure many of the other crunchers feel the same way. It's to your benefit as well as ours to have a more generous credit base for this project.

                                                                      Please let us know if this request can be achieved. I'm sure that SLicker(SETI.USA) would be glad to help with the 'how to..' in setting the credit levels. TIA

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                                                                      Message 134 - Posted 11 Aug 2010 2:01:01 UTC

                                                                        Last modified: 11 Aug 2010 2:10:45 UTC

                                                                        I am fine with the amount of credit granted. I would just like the stats to be exported more often. The Free-DC stats usually only update once every couple of days...
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                                                                        Message 135 - Posted 12 Aug 2010 18:00:09 UTC - in response to Message 134.

                                                                          Last modified: 12 Aug 2010 18:00:30 UTC

                                                                          I am fine with the amount of credit granted. I would just like the stats to be exported more often. The Free-DC stats usually only update once every couple of days...


                                                                          Of course you are.

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                                                                          Message 136 - Posted 12 Aug 2010 20:23:20 UTC - in response to Message 135.

                                                                            Last modified: 12 Aug 2010 20:35:59 UTC

                                                                            I am fine with the amount of credit granted. I would just like the stats to be exported more often. The Free-DC stats usually only update once every couple of days...


                                                                            Of course you are.


                                                                            Well, I'm NOT!! so there.... :>

                                                                            BTW for all of you who complained about the credits being too high, or just okay, I asked Fabio to make sure when he increased the credits, that he gives your credits to me and pay all of you in elephant food instead. After all, you are willing to *crunch* for PEANUTS, right?

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                                                                            Message 137 - Posted 14 Aug 2010 10:26:12 UTC - in response to Message 118.

                                                                              Last modified: 14 Aug 2010 10:34:35 UTC

                                                                              You have two employees:
                                                                              Employee 1: A bit of an idiot. Successfully dresses himself in the morning, then high-fives himself for completing such an arduous task.
                                                                              Employee 2: Brilliant young man. Could do anything he sets his mind to. Picks up on new things really easily.


                                                                              I see it more like that:

                                                                              E2: Gets a more sophisticated tool to work with and completes more work in the same amount of time.

                                                                              Greetings,
                                                                              Michael


                                                                              And E2 will walk out the door as soon as he realizes he is not being appreciated by your company! As an employee if my boss does not appreciate me, or the company does not, I am onto one that does! Company loyalty extends as far as the front door, ON BOTH SIDES! How many people work for Government Contractors? Do you think for one minute when that company loses that contract they keep those employees working? NOT ON YOUR LIFE THEY DON'T! The only way to keep the contract is to bid less and do more. Paying E1 and E2 the same amount of money in a business environment is just nuts!

                                                                              What should happen is all this talk about cross project parity should stop and we should be comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. A comparison was made to a game with runs, okay I am playing a baseball game and you are playing a softball game, should the runs be the same at the end of the day, NO THEY SHOULD NOT! A win or loss is what is important not the runs scored! So if project a wants to give everyone a chance to bat every inning and project b wants 3 outs per inning no matter how many people bat, in the end it only matters who won or lost! If I do a million workunits for project a and also crunch for project b and only do 300, why is it important that both give the same credits per workunit, or per hour of work? It should only be important within the project, not to any other project. This cross project parity stuff is someones idea of making their own project relevant while making others irrelevant!

                                                                              John a question for you, Seti allowed for 'optimized' apps a while back, do they still pay more than the Seti written apps? Or have you gotten rid of the 'optimized' app altogether, or does the process continue for those that choose to install it and get more credits? And if the 'optimized' app is still allowed which one is this new credit plan based upon?

                                                                              One last question...John you tried to explain about percentage of users and used the 1000 people as an example, my question is when you reach the break over point of over 50%, and I don't care if you wait until it reaches 60% or 75%, do you reduce the credits earned for the majority or reduce the credits earned for the minority? Because if you reduce neither, everything stays as it is now, each project paying what they want for the workunits they put out.

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                                                                              Message 138 - Posted 16 Aug 2010 15:04:29 UTC - in response to Message 137.

                                                                                I did not mean for my post to be a thread killer!!!!

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                                                                                Message 140 - Posted 18 Aug 2010 20:08:33 UTC - in response to Message 138.

                                                                                  Last modified: 18 Aug 2010 20:52:18 UTC

                                                                                  just a few more days, then I have 100K and I am outta here. Another E2 on the way out!


                                                                                  The very low pay here is just too painful!!! I don't work for less than minimum wage. (at least for very long) Just needed the experience on my resume so to speak.

                                                                                  Let the E1's donate their computer time to this project.

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                                                                                  Message 141 - Posted 19 Aug 2010 8:24:18 UTC - in response to Message 140.

                                                                                    Last modified: 19 Aug 2010 8:24:33 UTC

                                                                                    just a few more days, then I have 100K and I am outta here. Another E2 on the way out!



                                                                                    So I guess my chances for a scientific discovery increase.

                                                                                    Michael
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                                                                                    Message 142 - Posted 19 Aug 2010 10:15:02 UTC

                                                                                      Hi,

                                                                                      sorry but I have to finish my thesis until next week ... after that I promise to resolve this problem ...

                                                                                      Please don't stop crunching for primaboinca ... ;-)

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                                                                                      Message 143 - Posted 20 Aug 2010 9:40:17 UTC - in response to Message 141.

                                                                                        So I guess my chances for a scientific discovery increase.

                                                                                        Michael


                                                                                        Dittos!

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                                                                                        Message 144 - Posted 20 Aug 2010 9:44:09 UTC - in response to Message 142.

                                                                                          Hi,

                                                                                          sorry but I have to finish my thesis until next week ... after that I promise to resolve this problem ...

                                                                                          Please don't stop crunching for primaboinca ... ;-)


                                                                                          Fabio,
                                                                                          Best wishes on your thesis!!

                                                                                          FWIW, I'll hang around for a while longer

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                                                                                          Message 146 - Posted 24 Aug 2010 12:26:45 UTC - in response to Message 104.

                                                                                            Last modified: 24 Aug 2010 12:27:27 UTC

                                                                                            Hi.

                                                                                            just for the record. I agree with John. The project goal should be decisive, if you join a project (or not), not the credits. The insane amount of credits generated by DNETC ATM is just laughable.

                                                                                            Michael


                                                                                            Well so is the Insane amount offered by Milkyway which started all the in-saneness. Also Collatz & Aqua for a CPU Project, so one might as well go where it's the insanest ... LOL

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                                                                                            Message 148 - Posted 24 Aug 2010 21:24:37 UTC - in response to Message 146.

                                                                                              Hi.

                                                                                              just for the record. I agree with John. The project goal should be decisive, if you join a project (or not), not the credits. The insane amount of credits generated by DNETC ATM is just laughable.

                                                                                              Michael



                                                                                              Well so is the Insane amount offered by Milkyway which started all the in-saneness. Also Collatz & Aqua for a CPU Project, so one might as well go where it's the insanest ... LOL


                                                                                              Lead the way Sir Paladin*. I'm right behind you. More credits, if you plesse!

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                                                                                              Message 149 - Posted 24 Aug 2010 22:48:20 UTC

                                                                                                Well, this was entertaining.

                                                                                                I just want to run my IBM Power on the project. It should compile just as easy (easier) than the PS3 app. By the way, it would be employee 1.

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                                                                                                Message 151 - Posted 26 Aug 2010 16:02:23 UTC - in response to Message 116.

                                                                                                  You have two employees:
                                                                                                  Employee 1: A bit of an idiot. Successfully dresses himself in the morning, then high-fives himself for completing such an arduous task.
                                                                                                  Employee 2: Brilliant young man. Could do anything he sets his mind to. Picks up on new things really easily.
                                                                                                  ...
                                                                                                  If you say they should both be paid the same because they've been at the company the same amount of time, or because the company loves all its employees the same, I pray that I never work for you or anyone like you.
                                                                                                  End of allegory.

                                                                                                  But that wasn't a good analogy to what is discussed. Let's add employee 3.

                                                                                                  Employee 3 has the same job with those two but works for a different company. Exactly like Employee 2, he is a brilliant young man, could do anything he sets his mind to, picks up on new things really easily. His working hours and ability to produce work and improve are exactly the same with E2, only he works for a different employer.

                                                                                                  The question then becomes: Should E2 and E3 have the same salary or not?

                                                                                                  My answer would be No, as different employers and companies may have totally different market dynamics or size, different suppliers, processes or clientele.

                                                                                                  Same No answer goes to cross-project credit parity. It's not feasible in any fair or sustainable way and no brain power or programming effort should be wasted in achieving such parity.

                                                                                                  Credits have no real value so all arguments about capitalism/socialism are not applicable to the BOINC world. Projects can inflate credits all the way to infinity if they like without consequence. If a real world company would inflate salaries the same way, they would attract quality employees, but soon find their cost base above their revenue and flop. Credits are just a way to measure computing contribution and people use them to compare/compete with their BOINC peers. That's where fairness needs to be introduced.

                                                                                                  BOINC statistics sites large and small have a thing called BOINC Combined (or similar). Applicable to individuals and teams and countries, it's the first thing that comes in their pages and signatures etc. That's were my beef is and probably plenty of others accused of being credit cops.

                                                                                                  You crunch hard and make your way into your country's or team's top-10 or top-100 and often find that you cannot climb any further despite having a lot more computing power than those above you. That's only because they are crunching for projects that give silly amounts of credit. To compete you have to join them and free choice is lost there, not gained. Surely it's all only bragging rights and not everyone is interested in competition, but if you make a rank, then the ranking criteria need to be fair.

                                                                                                  If the BOINC combined metric (based on just total credit) was removed, the credit parity grief will disappear as well. It could be replaced with a fairer formula (surely that's doable, something similar to boincstats's world cup). So when someone finds a project that gives him a gazillion credits/day for his GPU, who cares, let him get those credits. He'll soon realise that those aren't useful in any ranking outside that project and certainly he won't be ahead of those who dedicate significantly more resources and (with the current system) find themselves outranked.

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                                                                                                  Message 152 - Posted 26 Aug 2010 18:45:49 UTC - in response to Message 151.

                                                                                                    The question then becomes: Should E2 and E3 have the same salary or not?

                                                                                                    My answer would be No, as different employers and companies may have totally different market dynamics or size, different suppliers, processes or clientele.

                                                                                                    Same No answer goes to cross-project credit parity. It's not feasible in any fair or sustainable way and no brain power or programming effort should be wasted in achieving such parity.


                                                                                                    I agree.

                                                                                                    Credits have no real value so all arguments about capitalism/socialism are not applicable to the BOINC world. Projects can inflate credits all the way to infinity if they like without consequence. If a real world company would inflate salaries the same way, they would attract quality employees, but soon find their cost base above their revenue and flop. Credits are just a way to measure computing contribution and people use them to compare/compete with their BOINC peers. That's where fairness needs to be introduced.


                                                                                                    Fairness?? Why should there be fairness? Your statement is patently hog wash. Capitolism and socialism are 'philosophical ideologies'. And yes, they can quite easily be applied to the BOINC world. Fairness to you means forcing everyone to live by your standards. There is no 'fainess' in that.

                                                                                                    On the other hand, how a real world company does it's business is it's mode of operations. A real world company can also be directly influenced by the 'philosophical ideologies' of the country it operates in. But not in the reverse.

                                                                                                    BOINC statistics sites large and small have a thing called BOINC Combined (or similar). Applicable to individuals and teams and countries, it's the first thing that comes in their pages and signatures etc. That's were my beef is and probably plenty of others accused of being credit cops.

                                                                                                    You crunch hard and make your way into your country's or team's top-10 or top-100 and often find that you cannot climb any further despite having a lot more computing power than those above you. That's only because they are crunching for projects that give silly amounts of credit. To compete you have to join them and free choice is lost there, not gained. Surely it's all only bragging rights and not everyone is interested in competition, but if you make a rank, then the ranking criteria need to be fair.

                                                                                                    If the BOINC combined metric (based on just total credit) was removed, the credit parity grief will disappear as well. It could be replaced with a fairer formula (surely that's doable, something similar to boincstats's world cup). So when someone finds a project that gives him a gazillion credits/day for his GPU, who cares, let him get those credits. He'll soon realise that those aren't useful in any ranking outside that project and certainly he won't be ahead of those who dedicate significantly more resources and (with the current system) find themselves outranked.


                                                                                                    Ttest, what you have just to shown all of us is what socialistic philosophies can do to someone's moral values and integrities. You are so corrupted by your desire to deny others what you yourself can not achieve, that you blame it on the unfairness of the 'system'. Hoping that if enough people believe as you do, that you will be elevated above your present station in life. I can not help believe that these ideals also permiates throughtout your own personal life.

                                                                                                    These all all sign of the corruption of the human spirit for freedom and liberty to be all you can. You are not forced to do anything in distributed computing. It's all voluntary! Your whining about the unfairness of others having and making more credits than you do, is pure envy, greed and jealousy. You want to 'force' them to lower themselves to your level because you can't beat them. There is an old saying, '...if you cant beat them, join them'. A very 'common sense' philosophy of living.

                                                                                                    Instead of blaming your petty shortcoming on how unfair life is, why dont you find a way to be a winner. Stop trying to level the playing field and 'earn' your wings by hard work and intellectual prowness. Then you can do all the bragging you want. You will have earned it by 'beating the system'. It's called freedom of choice.





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                                                                                                    Message 153 - Posted 26 Aug 2010 19:53:54 UTC

                                                                                                      I wish to express a point of view I hold that may help some of you see the big picture. Distributed computing is NOT about competition. It's about helping various projects, using a common software program called BOINC,to process their research thru the issuance of 'work units. As a reward for doing so, we are given credits for the work done. There is no momnetary value to the credits, but they have an 'compensatory' value, similiar to medals or trophies do for various sports.

                                                                                                      DC is an all volunteer program that we participate in for pleasure. We are not here because it's our job, our lively hood, rather we are here for our personal enjoyment. It's free and fun for all!

                                                                                                      Sadly, what is happening is that way to many of you have taken distributed computing as your own personal 'arena' and are attempting to set rules by which we have to play by. What utter nonsense. DC is no one's personal domain and there are no rules, nor should there be. Any rules applicable here are a project's domain. Not the hosts. Rules on how you connect with them, the applications you must use and how you report your findings are the only rules needed.

                                                                                                      The increasingly hostility between participants is not what distributed computing is about. Some participate for the science. Some for the credits. And some for a little of both. But in all case it is for the enjoyment. When it ceases to be fun, it's time to leave. For all you people that are whining about who has what credits, how they got them, or how unfair all of it might be, please remember this is all about helping the projects. Stop taking it personally and just enjoy knowing you are helping science. All this hostility is uncalled for and frankly, disgusting.

                                                                                                      Lighten up!




                                                                                                      JOHN
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                                                                                                      Message 154 - Posted 29 Aug 2010 2:16:58 UTC - in response to Message 153.

                                                                                                        if credit is all that matters,just get a mega gpu..ati,nvidia,ect..and go to town on one of those projects that gives big credit for short run times

                                                                                                        mikey
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                                                                                                        Message 157 - Posted 30 Aug 2010 13:02:54 UTC - in response to Message 152.

                                                                                                          The question then becomes: Should E2 and E3 have the same salary or not?

                                                                                                          My answer would be No, as different employers and companies may have totally different market dynamics or size, different suppliers, processes or clientele.

                                                                                                          Same No answer goes to cross-project credit parity. It's not feasible in any fair or sustainable way and no brain power or programming effort should be wasted in achieving such parity.


                                                                                                          I agree.

                                                                                                          Credits have no real value so all arguments about capitalism/socialism are not applicable to the BOINC world. Projects can inflate credits all the way to infinity if they like without consequence. If a real world company would inflate salaries the same way, they would attract quality employees, but soon find their cost base above their revenue and flop. Credits are just a way to measure computing contribution and people use them to compare/compete with their BOINC peers. That's where fairness needs to be introduced.


                                                                                                          Fairness?? Why should there be fairness? Your statement is patently hog wash. Capitolism and socialism are 'philosophical ideologies'. And yes, they can quite easily be applied to the BOINC world. Fairness to you means forcing everyone to live by your standards. There is no 'fainess' in that.

                                                                                                          On the other hand, how a real world company does it's business is it's mode of operations. A real world company can also be directly influenced by the 'philosophical ideologies' of the country it operates in. But not in the reverse.

                                                                                                          BOINC statistics sites large and small have a thing called BOINC Combined (or similar). Applicable to individuals and teams and countries, it's the first thing that comes in their pages and signatures etc. That's were my beef is and probably plenty of others accused of being credit cops.

                                                                                                          You crunch hard and make your way into your country's or team's top-10 or top-100 and often find that you cannot climb any further despite having a lot more computing power than those above you. That's only because they are crunching for projects that give silly amounts of credit. To compete you have to join them and free choice is lost there, not gained. Surely it's all only bragging rights and not everyone is interested in competition, but if you make a rank, then the ranking criteria need to be fair.

                                                                                                          If the BOINC combined metric (based on just total credit) was removed, the credit parity grief will disappear as well. It could be replaced with a fairer formula (surely that's doable, something similar to boincstats's world cup). So when someone finds a project that gives him a gazillion credits/day for his GPU, who cares, let him get those credits. He'll soon realise that those aren't useful in any ranking outside that project and certainly he won't be ahead of those who dedicate significantly more resources and (with the current system) find themselves outranked.


                                                                                                          Ttest, what you have just to shown all of us is what socialistic philosophies can do to someone's moral values and integrities. You are so corrupted by your desire to deny others what you yourself can not achieve, that you blame it on the unfairness of the 'system'. Hoping that if enough people believe as you do, that you will be elevated above your present station in life. I can not help believe that these ideals also permiates throughtout your own personal life.

                                                                                                          These all all sign of the corruption of the human spirit for freedom and liberty to be all you can. You are not forced to do anything in distributed computing. It's all voluntary! Your whining about the unfairness of others having and making more credits than you do, is pure envy, greed and jealousy. You want to 'force' them to lower themselves to your level because you can't beat them. There is an old saying, '...if you cant beat them, join them'. A very 'common sense' philosophy of living.

                                                                                                          Instead of blaming your petty shortcoming on how unfair life is, why dont you find a way to be a winner. Stop trying to level the playing field and 'earn' your wings by hard work and intellectual prowness. Then you can do all the bragging you want. You will have earned it by 'beating the system'. It's called freedom of choice.


                                                                                                          I think the problem is this notion of 'fair and equitable' credits across multiple projects! If we stopped comparing apples to oranges everything would be fine, Project A wants to give a gazillion credits for 10 seconds of work, okay everyone on that project gets that, but when Project B wants to give 1 credit for 10 hours of work it is silly and nonsensical ot try and compare the two! Employee 1 works for Company A and Employee 2 works for Company B, only the Employees care how much the other Company pays, the Companys only care because they want to attract some Employees and sometimes must be comparable, sometimes not. If we can get to the point that we are only competing WITHIN A GIVEN PROJECT then all this talk of comparing credits is gone! I decided to buy some decent, not the top of the line, gpu's for my own reasons. Do I like the credits they give, of course I do! But for me to compare a gpu project to a cpu project is stupid and nonsensical, IMO!! AND to compare 2 different cpu or gpu projects is just as stupid and nonsensical, again IMO!!
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                                                                                                          mikey
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                                                                                                          Message 158 - Posted 30 Aug 2010 13:03:54 UTC - in response to Message 154.

                                                                                                            if credit is all that matters,just get a mega gpu..ati,nvidia,ect..and go to town on one of those projects that gives big credit for short run times


                                                                                                            I TOTALLY agree, credit is not ALL that matters! AND it should NOT matter between projects!!

                                                                                                            zombie67 [MM]
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                                                                                                            Message 160 - Posted 31 Aug 2010 1:08:09 UTC - in response to Message 157.

                                                                                                              If we can get to the point that we are only competing WITHIN A GIVEN PROJECT then all this talk of comparing credits is gone!


                                                                                                              This is exactly why alternate statistics like MegaMilestones and Formula BOINC are the only real way to compare and measure cross-project. You just can't use credits straight up, when comparing project stats.
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